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A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby Mostly Weeds » Apr 20, 2012 1:36 pm

Thanks Dave, great info.

So basically, 2012's pure seeds go in and they MAY cross pollinate. I've found some info on the web saying that beans are somewhere around a 5% chance as a guess. So, 2013s crop of my saved seeds go in and they likely come out really close. It's with 2014s crop of saved seed that I'm literally rolling the dice though?

Was reading just now that Runners are the more promiscuous ones, and I do have a packet of Sunset Runner beans (their beautiful pink blooms are what sucked me in), so maybe I'll at least set those aside for now.
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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby davefrombc » Apr 20, 2012 1:55 pm

The big danger of ending up with hybrid seed is more in your tomato heirlooms than in your beans.. I did a search on preventing tomato hybrids and came up with this site.
Some excellent info there .
http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/toma ... 04159.html
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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby Dumbo » Apr 20, 2012 2:54 pm

ty for the info and link.

I was trying to find something on spacing but had no luck. Only found porn.

So really the average backyard gardener is better off just buying seeds then.

Adam, most people just plant those runners for the flowers anyhow. You can put them maybe in a different area if you are planning on saving seeds from the other beans.
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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby Dumbo » Apr 20, 2012 3:11 pm

Mostly Weeds wrote:beans are somewhere around a 5% chance as a guess. So, 2013s crop of my saved seeds go in and they likely come out really close. It's with 2014s crop of saved seed that I'm literally rolling the dice though?

Really it's just statistics. Probability.

The farther apart the less probability. 2013 is a low probability. Think of it as a rejection rate. When you look at it statistically from a manufacturing point of view, 5% is only like 2 or 3 points off from being statistically acceptable for even military applications following the old Mil-STD 105D.

So 2013 is no problem. Totally acceptable.

2014 you run the risk/probability of a higher rejection rate. So you are better off taking seeds from 5 plants instead of two (as an example) to decrease your likelihood of a rejection.

When you start growing the plants, they may have tell-tale signs (especially with tomatoes I would suppose). Example, does the tomato plant have hairs on the stem, leaf shape different etc. If so, toss it out and toss the batch of seeds out from that plant.

Even 2014 has a good probability of being good. Not like this is a military application where you are seeking 99% acceptability.

2015 I would start looking into new seeds.

I would take care of those pepper plants though. :p

Also there are methods, like that link states, to better increase the probability in your favour. Like planting flowers or other veggies between rows of tomatoes to lure the pollinating insects away. So that 5% now becomes 3% or 2% and your good till the 2016 season.

OGrubber seems to have a good reference with her. I'm curious if the books she has gets into the probability? But then again, she has the space to lower that to 1% just by method/spacing, so maybe not.
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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby Dumbo » Apr 20, 2012 3:43 pm

So umm... since Kelly is gone for the weekend I think we should start a Kelly topic and poke some fun at her while she's away and can't nag back.

Adam, since you are new here you will have to prove yourself to us.

Create a topic poking some non-disturbing fun at Ms. Kelly.

Doing so will earn you a seed point towards joining our gang. Takes 5 seed points to be proven. Dave and I are already there, thus exempt.

EDIT:
Unless you wish to tell us all that you're chiiiickeen.

EDIT 2:
It's been a very long time since i've done probabilities. I would have to hit the books to be 100% sure...

But I roughly estimate that your year 2 seeds have a 85% chance of being true. So that makes them ok for year 3.

After year 3 it all goes down hill and the odds aren't really with you. Just isn't worth it.

To me 85% is good. And that is assuming you take seeds from one plant only. You increase your odds by taking seeds from more than one plant.

(assuming 5% with no other pollinating flowers to lower that percentage)

Someone else maybe who is up to snuff can take a crack at it. But that's the numbers I come to.

I don't know what OGrubber would say to that though. She's the expert there.
Is an 85% chance of having a true plant good odds (based on seeds from one plant)? That I don't know.
Last edited by Dumbo on Apr 20, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby davefrombc » Apr 20, 2012 4:02 pm

Most people who want to keep an heirloom vegetable usually pick a favourite rather than trying to propagate several different varieties. You could easily keep one tomato variety , one bean , one of any other heirloom veggie you want . You only run into trouble keeping the strain pure if you want to grow 2 or more of one family. Tomatoes are self fertile , so it is easy to keep their seed pure by hand pollinating the blossom and then bagging it to stop insects or wind from adding other pollen to it . . You could transfer pollen between two specimens of one variety to allow a bit of gene variation while still maintaining heirloom purity. It isn't difficult .. You cover the blossoms before they open so no pollen reaches them .. When they open , you use a fine artists paint brush to transfer the pollen between the blooms and them bag them again to continue to prevent contaminating pollen. Once the fruit is set the bagging isn't necessary, but you need to tag the fruit so you know which one you hand pollinated so you can use that fruit to extract your next years seed from. It's fiddly work, but not that difficult to do. If you stick to one heirloom you like , and there is no other variety nearby , you don't have to go through the hand pollination/ bagging routine.
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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby Dumbo » Apr 20, 2012 4:20 pm

I see your point. But, as a backyard gardener, 85% over 3 years sounds good to me. Maybe he could even freeze/store some year one seeds to use in year 3? If he can do that. So basically store extra's for 2 years down the road.

I guess it all depends on the type of person or gardener. I know I wouldn't bag flowers unless it was something I was really, really, into. Like maybe a couple of those peppers he isn't going to find here (if they are good). I'd rather just buy new seed after year two or 3.

Besides, with all he has, he is on the road to discovery I would imagine. To see what he likes and want to continue or toss out and not bother with again.

So whatever seeds he ends up with at the end of this 1st season should be good anyhow. Unless he is the unluckiest guy on the face of the earth... Murphy's law.
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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby kelly_m » Apr 20, 2012 4:22 pm

Well, Marc.

Good luck with that!

Technology is awesome.

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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby Dumbo » Apr 20, 2012 4:24 pm

kelly_m wrote:Good luck with that!

Hey, don't look at me! I'm not the one who has to prove himself and earn seed points. It's Adam. ALL ADAM.
Not me.
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Re: A big Hello/Introduction and a list of my veggies =)

Postby davefrombc » Apr 20, 2012 4:35 pm

Beans are not likely to be a problem , but seed saved from a hybrid tomato can give you something entirely different from the parent. It depends on the dominant characteristics of the genes .. For example .. I had some tomatoes I grew, a hybrid medium sized one with high yield .. Seeds from that plant grew in the next year ( it had self seeded itself from a couple of tomatoes that fell) Those fruits were tiny , about 1/2" cherry sized.. Flavourful , but nothing like the plant the seeds came from. Remember .. Most hybrid tomato seed is F1.. meaning the plants parents were two tomatoes with different characteristics than the plant the seed produces. The seed companies know just what those characteristics will be because they control which two parents were used; and all the offspring of parents of their pure strains will have the combined characteristics they want .
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